The Dialogue Begins....



     Hello Dr. Goodwin. I am thankful you have agreed to write some articles for this site.  Some of what you share with us will reinforce what we already know.  Other articles will help us better understand sound doctrine.  Yet others will gently challenge us to take a second look at some of our preconceived notions and assumptions.  I am looking forward to us getting into some really interesting discussions. Would you begin please by telling us about yourself.

     I am the younger son of Rev. and Mrs. J. R. Goodwin, more affectionately known as Mom and Dad Goodwin.  As you know from the website, my dad spent the majority of his life as pastor of a number of different Assemblies of God churches.  His last pastorate, of a little over twenty one years, was at the First Assembly of God Church, Pasadena, TX.

     My parents were highly knowledgeable and active in the arena of spiritual gifts as articulated in 1 Corinthians 12.  The skill they demonstrated in this area of ministry was probably matched only by a very few ministers of their days.  However, there were other men, men such as Howard Carter and Ken Hagin, who were also chosen by God, as if it were, to operate in these particular spiritual manifestations.  Why these men?  I don’t know, but it was God’s choice, not man’s.

     Brother Charles, can you please elaborate a bit more on your spiritual heritage?  The ministers you've known all your life who preached at your parents' church reads like a Who's Who of Pentecostal and Charismatic ministry.

     One interesting thing about growing up in the type home that I did, you get to know a lot of ministers.  As a kid, it seemed to me that regardless as to where we went in the State of Texas, there were people my parents knew well.  Getting to know these folk from the perspective of a child and later as young person, either at their home or at my parent’s home, was sort of an "every-day experience" for me.  Some experiences I recall with fondness.  I will give three examples that are for me, heartwarming memories.

     The first had to do with Jack Coe, the great "healing" evangelist. Just after I turned sixteen (I had just gotten my drivers licence), Jack Coe held a tent meeting in Tyler, TX.  On the last Sunday afternoon of this meeting he had a massive baptism service at a local lake.  Since he and dad were very good friends, the decision was made for Brother Coe to ride with my dad and me to the lake for the baptismal service.  I was doing my best to drive with caution, while at the same time, Brother Coe was saying things such as, "come on son, get the lead out of your britches and pass that car, we need to be there early."  Bottom line - - I got the lead out - - I did pass some cars - - we did get there early.  For me it was a wonderful experience getting to be in the presence of such a well-known evangelist who demonstrated that being spiritual didn’t mean you had to be a "pansy" (a Texas expression).  Jack Coe was no pansy!  He was spiritual - - he was real - - and I cherish this memory.

     Years before this Jack Coe experience I had the opportunity to really get to know Kenneth Hagin and his family very, very, well.  Many times, even prior to my teen years, I had given up my bed for Kenneth Hagin when he was at my Dad's church to minister.  It got to be so common that when I saw Brother Hagin immediately the thought would run through my mind, "Well, there goes my bed and here comes the floor!"

     A very special person in my life was Mrs. Oretha Hagin.  I called her "Aunt R."  I was "her boy" so to speak. As a kid, any time I had a conflict, I could depend on her to "take my side."  To me, she was "the lady," and I adored her.

     One great memory has to do with me returning from making my first "big" away-from-home visit.  I had visited my aunt in North Carolina (we lived in East Texas).  To get to NC and back to TX, I had to ride "the bus."  I was fifteen years old when I got on the bus to come back home from North Carolina.  About sixteen hours later the bus arrived at my home town.  It was 2 o'clock in the morning.  Since the interstate bus passed within about half a block of my parent’s home, I got the bus driver to stop and let me off before going to the bus station.  When I looked out of the window I saw someone standing in the shadow of the street lights on the side of the four-lane highway.  It wasn’t my mother nor my father - - they were home in their bed sound asleep.  Guess who is was!  Yep, it was "the lady."  Oretha Hagin took me to her house for breakfast, etc. (she lived just down the block), before delivering me to my parents at home. No doubt, there always was a close bond between her and me.  She was just like a special kind of "blood kin" to me.

     Ken Hagin, Jr., was a "younger" friend (I’m about three years his senior).  We had a big brother/ little brother relationship.  As an older big brother would do, I taught Ken how to play football and run track.  I’m proud to say, Ken learned these (and other) sports very well and was quite accomplished in his performance of same.

     During this general period of time I also had a wonderful relationship (because of my parents) with another notable preacher.  The preacher to whom I refer is Dr. Ralph Wilkerson.  When I was about fifteen years old Ralph asked me to go with him (as a musician) to conduct a week’s revival in Palestine, TX.  (His wife was unable to make this trip because she was in bad need of some R&R.)  I’ll always remember the wonderful week that I was with Ralph.  He talked to me about God and golf. He treated me like a peer rather than like a young teenager.  He really won my admiration.  We were staying at a hotel downtown.  During our stay there I was asked more than once, "is that preacher Billy Graham?"  (Billy Graham had just become well known as a result of the newspaper coverage of his meetings in California.)  I do admit, Ralph did have certain characteristics that would remind one of Dr. Graham.  For example, they were articulate, rather tall and stately, and both could "preach the daylights" out of a sermon.  It’s interesting how God used these men.  One remained an evangelist through out his career, and the other became the pastor of a great California church.

     I suppose that one of the most unusual things that ever happened to me was something that happened when I was about eighteen months of age (so I don’t remember anything about this incident).  But my mom told me the story many times.  It has to do with how prayers are sometimes answered in more than just one way.  The event - - I had a medical condition that was soon going to require surgery.  So, when Smith Wigglesworth came to my parents home church in Dallas, Texas, I was taken to him for prayer.  According to my mom, Brother Wigglesworth didn’t really pray for my physical need. In fact mom said she was almost offended because Brother Wigglesworth just laid his hand on my head and with that English accent, said, "God, bless da baby."

     This prayer did come true!  I believe what I am today may partially be a result or even an effect of that prayer.  God did bless the baby and gave that baby a real thirst to know His Word.

     God not only gave "da baby" a thirst for His Word, but He also gave "da baby" an opportunity to spend years in a formal study of His Word.  Another part of "God blessing da baby," perhaps is my getting to share with you, the reader, about things concerning Him and His revelation to us in His Scriptures.  Incidently, concerning my physical need for which my mother had requested prayer from Smith Wigglesworth, at that time there was no change in my condition.  However, a few days later, while my dad was in downtown Dallas, he was impressed to kneel and have a prayer for my medical condition.  My dad did as he was impressed to do. Before he got home I was completely healed of the malady.  I was supernaturally and divinely healed.  I didn’t have to have surgery.  Yes, maybe that was the start of God’s "blessing da baby."

     Although your parents were accepting of the ministries of others, and were open to all that was truly anointed of the Spirit and in agreement with the word, they also separated themselves from any sort of fanaticism or questionable conduct.  Please share with us an example or two of ministries or situations your parents avoided and why.

     During my growing up years at home, I saw a number of ministries come and go.  For example, there was a movement in those days known as "the Latter Rain" or "Latter Day Rain" movement.  Unusual things, which some people called "signs" did happen in some of these ministries.  Dad just didn’t get involved in these things.  However, I remember in the middle 60s, when A. A. Allen was having a tent meeting in Pasadena, TX (the city where my dad was pastor of the First Assembly of God Church), asking my dad as to why he was not participating in these meetings.  He said that he was uncomfortable with a number of things going on in these meetings about which he could find not scriptural support.  Therfore he would not be a participant in, nor encourage his church to be, a part of these type meetings.  Dad and Mom just didn’t believe in getting caught up in excesses, yet they were leaders in being involved in "operations of spiritual gifts."  But in their ministry manifestations of the Spirit’s operations were carefully weighed or tested "by the Scriptures."  There just wasn’t a place for excesses.

     Your father and Kenneth Hagin Sr. were close friends for over 40 years.  Please tell us what made these men's ministries different from other ministries of the time?

     One interesting characteristic of these gentlemen was, they never relegated themselves to be restricted in their ministry.  In other words, they were not so denominationally minded that they excluded people of other denominations.  In fact, Ken Hagin established a very successful interdenominational ministry years before such ministries were as common as they are today.  (It is my belief that many evangelical and charismatic churches are indebted to Ken Hagin in this matter).  Rev. J. R. Goodwin?  Although he never left his affiliation with his denomination, his fellowship and interaction with other "brothers-in-the-faith" was so involved that some of his associates, and scores of observers, never realized his denominational connection.  In fact, his best friend was Ken Hagin, and Ken Hagin’s best friend was J. R. Goodwin.  Although their friendship began in the late 30s or early 40s when they were ministers in the same denomination, when that picture changed their friendship developed even deeper.  Religious labels had no place in their hearts, I remember well that my dad’s test for spiritual gifts or unusual religious experiences was, can your theology and spiritual practices be substantiated by Scripture?  If the answer was yes, dad would treat you as an equal, but if one’s practices could not be undergirded by Scripture, he would be a little more guarded in his relationship with you.

     Was there a major ingredient or primary characteristic that made J. R. Goodwin and Ken Hagin different?

     Perhaps, there were many things, but one of the most important of which I am aware is, they held firmly to the mind-set of having a teachable spirit.  Did they always agree?  No way, but when they differed on issues they cut each other a "lot of slack."  Maybe this is why their friendship with "others-brothers-and-sisters-in-the-faith" (outside of their own historical denominations) was so strong.  As a result of this non-exclusive attitude, people from different denominational persuasions were able to enjoy seeing, and being a part of, some rather unusual manifestations of God’s grace being unveiled through His spiritual gifts.

     As I grew up in the environment, getting to know men who later became great leaders in the Charismatic movement was a common thing.  One positive factor I see even now is, as a whole the spiritual leaders I have known in the Charismatic movement really love the Lord.  However, I do believe that in some areas of theology some of the Charismatic ministers have deviated from the path as held throughout the history of Christian beliefs, or maybe better said, some Charismatic teachers differ from the views as presented in historic Christian doctrine.  Historic Christian doctrine is time tested and usually solidly based on Scripture.  I am not talking about church dogma, but about doctrine as held by true Christians down through the centuries.  When there is a difference, one ought to be extremely careful in what he accepts.  I would suggest, new "revelation" is usually wrong and non-biblical when considered within the whole context of God’s Word.

     What are your qualifications to evaluate doctrine, and from what platform are your evaluations based?

     As indicated, I grew up hearing and seeing some highly unusual manifestations concerning spiritual operations.  However, rather than continue in that mold of ministry, the Lord placed me in a different field.  As a freshman in college I began attending the First Baptist Church, Huntsville, TX, a Southern Baptist Church.  I immediately knew, "this is the church for me."  Then after spending a number of years in the corporate world and as an entrepreneuer, I finally yielded to the call that had been on my life since childhood.  I surrendered to the ministry. I went back to seminary.  After five years I had earned both a Masters of Divinity and a doctoral degree.  My areas of specialization are theology and biblical languages.  I am what some would identify as a conservative, modified Calvinistic Baptist.  However, as one can see from my history, I also understand the Charismatic and/or Classical Pentecostal positions as articulated by most of the leaders of these movements.  Any discussion or evaluation of theological positions is made in a spirit of love and respect.  We may not always agree, but we can always disagree in love.

     You said that your Dad and Brother Hagin were best friends for years, yet they did not see eye to eye on certain teachings.  They maintained their friendship, and ministered for and with each other for decades by cutting each other "a lot of slack."  I am concerned with the un-Christlike attitude many Christian ministers show toward each other.  They seem to consider everyone who is not in 100% agreement with them to be their absolute enemy.  Can reasonable people disagree without being disagreeable?

     Not only can reasonable people disagree without being disagreeable, that is the best way, in my judgement, to exhibit a truly "Christian attitude."  I really believe in the philosophy of "show me, don’t snow me."  I personally have difficulty with those who don’t allow someone to hold a different view.  However, when talking about spiritual matters, one ought to be able to undergird his/her conviction with scriptural support.

     Lastly Dr. Goodwin, you refer to yourself in jest as being a "Bapticostal."  Although you spent years teaching Koine Greek and New Testament Subjects at a Baptist University, you also accept invitations to minister in Charismatic churches.  You see both camps. Please tell me, what can Charismatics and non-Charismatics learn from each other?

     I really believe both camps have something of great value to God’s people today.  The Charismatics, it seems to me, have restored the importance of experiencing life and enthusiasm to the Christian message.  Many of our denominational churches need this renewal of spirituality because some have become so formal that the response to God’s Spirit is too often obscured.  So many of our churches have little more that a ritualistic and dead service to offer the worshipers.  There is nothing wrong with being ritualistic, but there should be life in that ritual.  After all, Jesus claimed to have come to bring life.  He said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10b).  Charismatics have, in many instances, restored life to what had become in some churches, a dead and lifeless worship.

     Conservative evangelicals also have much to offer their fellow Christians in Charismatic churches.  These churches are also built, just as Charismatic churches, on Christ the solid rock.  However, in most conservative evangelical churches the Bible is emphasized.  Additionally, the church’s teachings emphasize the applying of Scripture in one’s daily living and the fulfilling of the Great Commandment, that is, evangelicals place an emphasis of soul winning, not so much on unusual or special personal spiritual (religious) experiences.  Conservative evangelicals never want to have said about them what Jesus said about the Sadducees when in a discussion with them about marriage and the resurrection.  The Bible reads, Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (KJV, Matt 22:29).

     Maybe the Charismatic churches ought to spend more time in "knowing the Scriptures," and basing their practices and doctrines on same.  Maybe conservative evangelicals should spend more energy and time in understanding the reasons for allowing a high energy worship service, along with exhibiting an openness toward their members having unusual personal spiritual experiences - - if these personal experiences align with Scripture.  I truly believe both camps have valid points of emphasis.  More balance on both sides may be a good answer.

     Thank you Dr. Goodwin.

Copyright 2007 Dr. Charles Goodwin. Article may be copied and shared with others if done so without charge, in entirety, and if attribution is given.